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000-J03 IBM Sys I Entry even for BPs - Tech. Mastery Test V1

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000-J03 exam Dumps Source : IBM Sys I Entry even for BPs - Tech. Mastery Test V1

Test Code : 000-J03
Test title : IBM Sys I Entry even for BPs - Tech. Mastery Test V1
Vendor title : IBM
: 74 actual Questions

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IBM IBM Sys I Entry

Counting The can charge Of IBM i On Power9 Entry methods | killexams.com actual Questions and Pass4sure dumps

April 9, 2018 Timothy Prickett Morgan

anytime there is a Moore’s legislations ameliorate in processing, even if corporations charge by using the core or by the socket, there's cost reduce – in concept at least – for techniques utility. here is unquestionable if the chip maker decides to goose the efficiency of the cores or add greater cores to a socket, or each on the equal time.

in the past a number of generations of power processors used in the energy methods line, IBM has executed each. because the methods application is in line with cores, youngsters, the rush from two to four to eight to 12 cores per socket has no longer meant a consequent discount within the rate of utility such because the IBM i platform and its built-in database management equipment. however the performance of cores, via a amalgamate of clock speeds and architectural improvements, has often long gone up era to generation, and with the jump from the Power8 to the vigour 9, the ground improvement, core for core and at clock speeds usually used in Power8 and Power9 configurations is somewhere between 30 p.c and 50 p.c, as IBM explained to us on the Power9 “ZZ” systems launch lower back in February. The raw performance of the structure, normalized for a socket and at a baseline clock precipitate they reckon is around four GHz, become someplace between 50 percent and 95 %, reckoning on the workload, IBM divulged returned in the summer of 2016 when the Power9 structure turned into previewed to the chip illuminati.

a pair of weeks in the past, they drilled down into the price/performance of the brand modern ZZ systems in ground hardware configurations as in comparison to the prior technology of Power8 entry equipment, which which you could review here. The configured machines, which might live in response to the processor configurations that IBM used to accomplish its industrial performance Workload (CPW) benchmark examine plus an affordable amount of reminiscence and disk, can charge anywhere from $12,641 for an influence S914 with four cores running at 2.3 GHz, 64 GB of leading remembrance and four 600 GB disk drives to $ninety nine,290 for an influence S924 with 24 cores running at 3.4 GHz, 768 GB of remembrance and those 4 ground 600 GB disks. The bang for the buck on the vigour S914, vigour S922, and power S924 machines had a extremely tense latitude of between 23 cents and 27 cents per CPW. The funds on Power8 outfit – the vitality S814, vigour S822, and energy S824 – changed into nearly the same, but the cost per CPW on the machines had a much better and broader latitude, from a low of 25 cents per CPW for a hefty configuration of the energy S822 to a elevated of sixty six cents per CPW for a midline vigour S824.

To travail out what the bottom software costs suffer been on these two sets of entry vitality programs machines, they discovered what OS/400 and IBM i application tier every configuration changed into in, after which dug round to fetch the per-core pricing for IBM i. They took out the ninety days of software preservation (SWMA) it is covered with the bottom energy S814 and energy S914 machines to acquire it reminiscent of the relaxation of the machines, which shouldn't suffer any SWMA bundled. outright vigour programs machines running IBM i require that a 12 months of SWMA, at least, live configured to them, however they are ignoring this for now. They are only attempting to segregate the charges of the utility. They configured IBM i on the entire cores, that are outright activated on the machines by passage of default nascence with the Power9 iron. IBM i has a ground one-time perpetual license cost, and then there is a per-user cost of $250 a person on proper of that. They brought this person can charge in, reckoning that someplace around 5,000 CPWs per user is representative of the number of clients on a customary computing device in these classes. (We don't suppose that businesses basically designate this a well-behaved deal CPW to clients, however their database and batch jobs could require that tons oomph even though their on-line transaction processing workloads don't.) i can don't forget when it appeared like 500 CPWs or 1,000 CPWs per person changed into an abominable lot.

here is how the Power8 entry machines appear:

definitely, the energy S812L and vitality S822L machines, which might live Linux-only packing containers, can not live loaded up with IBM i. They left the Linux-most effectual machines in birthright here for continuity with the hardware pricing they did a number of weeks ago. The CPW ratings are their estimates for these configurations, and different estimates are additionally proven in daring red. On the P05-class vigour S814 computer, the can charge of the bottom IBM i license is $7,985 across those 4 cores, and with the sixteen users shown, the cost rises to $eleven,985. This works out to 30 cents per CPW for the utility – a itsy-bitsy bit lower than the can charge of the hardware on a cost per CPW basis. here is the most effectual time that occurs, so don’t fetch excited. (And if they added even a number of more clients to the machine, it will now not live real.)

Hardware charges upward thrust as machines fetch greater potent, but software charges upward thrust even quicker, as that you could observe from the above desk. that you can also observe the sequel of the spend of machines with loads of cores running at reduce clock speeds on IBM i pricing. truly, don’t try this. fetch the quickest cores which you could and fetch as few of them as that you could is their most useful advice.

How plenty extra costly is the hardware than the utility? That is contingent upon the computing device, however the reply to that query is often: a lot more. select a look:

This indicates the cost per CPW of the hardware configurations they ginned up just a few weeks ago against the bottom IBM i configuration proven in this story. The aspect of expense contrast between application and hardware is anywhere from 4.6X to 12.4X, as which you could see.

Now, let’s observe how the Power9 entry machines stack up to these. here is the software fees for the ZZ methods that they profiled lower back in March:

In widely wide-spread, the software costs, on a per CPW basis, are reduce, starting from a low of 25 cents to a exorbitant of $2.ninety five. here's plenty better. but as you can observe in the chart under, the delta ingredient between hardware and ground IBM i pricing is quiet in the identical variety of gap, ranging from a low of four.7X to a elevated of 11X:

That noted, the rate/performance advancements for both ground hardware and ground utility are fairly gigantic, so it's the first rate news. there has been Moore’s law improvements for both the hardware and the utility, which there certainly may quiet suffer been supply the 4 yr hole between these two families of machines. The tempo has slowed, to acquire sure, however the offers are quiet enhanced. The concern is that it is not practicable to fetch the cost of a ground machine beneath $25,000. They quiet believe this decal fee is simply too elevated compared to X86 iron, whatever they are able to learn in a future theme of The four Hundred.

connected reports

Bang For The Buck On Power9 Entry Hardware

The performance suffer an sequel on Of Spectre And Meltdown

The Deal On Power9 remembrance For Entry Servers

inside IBM’s vigour S924 Power9 Entry device

Drilling Down Into the modern Power9 Entry Servers

in the end, IBM i ultimately receives Power9

IBM Preps Power9 “ZZ” techniques For forthcoming Launch

IBM Readies Mainstream Power9 Iron For Launch

The AS/four hundred classes reach back round With Power9 programs

IBM Deal expenses present Power8 Compute like Future Power9

guidance For The vigour techniques shop That Has To purchase Now

Power9 huge Iron “Fleetwood/Mack” Rumors

speakme Power9 With IBM Fellow Brad McCredie

The vigour Neine Conundrum

IBM i And AIX won’t fetch Power9 unless 2018


IBM juices I/O and reminiscence on entry power techniques | killexams.com actual Questions and Pass4sure dumps

when you are a person of an entry or rather biggish vitality programs server and also you are remembrance or I/O restrained, then IBM has some modern Power7 machines it wants to sell you. If not, the enterprise is completely gay to sell you the existing Power7 machines, which don't support as lots leading remembrance and which simplest spend PCI-X and PCI-categorical 1.0 peripherals.

On Wednesday, as rumored, IBM did indeed do out modern methods – however they aren't in response to the Power7+ chip, however as a substitute present Power7 processors. Some are running on the identical clock speeds as these used within the machines they exchange, and some are working a tad bit sooner thanks to enhanced yields on the forty five nanometer process huge Blue uses to etch the eight-core Power7 processors.

IBM Power 710/730 server

The entry energy 710/730 Power7 server

The updated power 710 and vitality 730 servers are available in the identical 2U chassis that their older siblings and immediate twins suffer been wrapped in once they suffer been announced in August 2010.

the brand modern vitality 710 has a unique Power7 processor and eight DDR3 main remembrance slots working at 1.07GHz. in contrast to the older 710 model, it supports 16GB remembrance sticks and for this understanding tops out at 128GB as an alternative of 64GB. The computing device additionally has 5 x8 peripheral slots, as an alternative of four, and they Run on the sooner PCI-express 2.0 velocity that most servers spend at the moment – they are able to delivery the PCI-express three.0 cycle as soon as Intel formally launches its "Sandy Bridge-EP" Xeon E5 processors sometime subsequent year.

These PCI gen-2 x8 peripheral slots operate at 20Gb/sec of bandwidth, twice the gen-1 slots. The feeble and modern power 710s present the identical processor alternatives: a four-core chip working at 3GHz, a six-core operating at three.7GHz, and an eight-core at 3.55GHz.

The power 730 it truly is according to the equal chassis comes with a two-socket processor card that may lead as much as 256GB using the 16GB sticks, and has four diverse processor options, which suffer to live introduced in matched pairs: four-core 3GHz, 4-core three.7GHz, six-core three.7GHz, and eight-core 3.55GHz. The chassis has margin for six 2.5-inch drives.

The up-to-date energy 720 machine comes in a 4U chassis with margin for eight 2.5-inch disks and has the equal five PCI-categorical 2.0 slots. or not it's a single-socket computer, and it may possibly only live configured with Power7 chips working at 3GHz; shoppers can select a processor with four, six, or eight cores. The entry four-core edition doesn't suffer a 12X I/O loop (a modified InfiniBand 20Gb/sec hyperlink) to hook to far flung storage bays, but the ones with six or eight cores do. the brand modern vitality 720 tops out at 256GB of main reminiscence using the 16GB sticks.

IBM's Power 720/740 server

IBM's vitality 720/740 server

The power 740 may also live configured with one or two gadget playing cards, every with one processor, and offers 4 different Power7 processor options: 4-core operating at three.3GHz or three.7GHz, six-core at three.7GHz, and eight-core at 3.55GHz. you could add one processor at a time, however the 2d one has to match the first one if you fetch round to placing it in.

each processor card has a unique 12X remote I/O slot and supports 256GB of leading reminiscence, twice what remaining yr's vitality 740 might do. The machine supports 5 PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 slots, and with optional PCI-express drawers placing off that 12X loop, that you could add an extra forty PCI-specific 2.0 slots to the system.

besides the fatter remembrance and PCI increase, these 4 machines suffer a dedicated slot for a twin-port Gigabit Ethernet LAN controller. Nothing else can plug into this slot.

On the power 770, IBM is goosing the speeds on the Power7 processors a bit of, lots because it did with the vigour 750s in April this year. The power 770 computer is made up of 4 two-socket servers which are lashed along side a NUMA chipset that creates an eight-socket, shared remembrance equipment.

final yr's fashions used six-core Power7s operating at 3.5GHz or eight-core chips operating at 3.1GHz. within the modern energy 770, the six-core chips are revved to 3.72GHz and the eight-core versions spin at 3.3GHz. The maximum reminiscence on this desktop is doubled to 4TB the spend of 16GB reminiscence, and the server nodes now suffer six PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 peripheral slots.

IBM Power 770

IBM's four-chassis vitality 770

As fraction of the Power7 launch in February 2010, a special version of the 4-chassis vigour 770, referred to as the vigour 780, became created with a dual-boot mode that allowed for half of the cores to live turned off on reboot and the chip clocks to Run rather larger. This additionally allowed the 32GB of embedded DRAM L3 cache to live carved up by using half as many processor cores. For loads of workloads (akin to database processing), the doubling in L3 cache and qualify clock pace enhance per core may discontinuance up in a computer that does significantly more work.

With the modern power 780 launched this week, IBM is shifting the energy 780 to four sockets from the outdated two and plunking in six-core chips. So the accurate-conclusion mannequin has 96 cores, operating at 3.44GHz. The sixty four-core mannequin, which is in keeping with eight-core processors, also become tweaked, with cores that Run at 3.92GHz with outright cores on (a itsy-bitsy better than the three.86GHz of closing yr's mannequin) and at four.14GHz with half the cores deactivated (the equal as the prior computing device). reminiscence capability on both modern vigour 780 editions is doubled to a max of 4TB.

Why not thrust the energy 780 the entire passage to 128 cores and spend full eight-core Power7 chips? as a result of that would intrude with energy 795 income, and IBM expenses a nice top rate for processors, reminiscence, and application on those boxes.

The vitality 795s scale as much as 32 sockets, 256 cores, and 1,024 threads as well as up to 8TB of reminiscence. IBM's AIX 7.1 and purple Hat and SUSE Linuxes can span these cores and threads in a unique graphic, but great Blue's personal IBM i (formerly OS/400) operating gadget peters out at 32 cores and 128 threads devoid of special patches.

by the way, neither the vigour 750 nor the power 795 suffer been up-to-date with double remembrance or PCI-specific 2.0 peripheral slots. Steve Sibley, director of product management for the vitality techniques line at huge Blue, tells El Reg that the enterprise decided that these machines did not necessity the I/O or reminiscence improvements presently. The vigour 750 already supported 512GB of remembrance the spend of 8GB sticks, and it is incredibly unlikely that IBM has many shoppers clamoring for 16TB energy 795s.

the modern energy programs will live attainable on October 21. Pricing within the ground machines is the exact identical for the entry energy 710, 720, 730, and 740 machines – and this is so with the aid of intention, says Sibley, to acquire it viable for IBM's earnings reps and channel partners to focal point on selling both forms of machines.

If it were me doing the purchasing, i might both exact a box that may support the faster I/O and fatter remembrance or exact a value lop if i was buying the older box from remaining year. ®

subsidized: fitting a practical protection leader


IBM power device S922: Rack Server Overview and insight | killexams.com actual Questions and Pass4sure dumps

See the total checklist of well-behaved rack server carriers

base line:

The IBM vitality techniques S922 server is designed from the ground up for information intensive workloads like databases or analytics. it may possibly support a number of key business information-intensive scenarios, together with mainstream purposes, leading-part HPC workloads and evolving ersatz intelligence (AI) tasks.

shoppers seeking essential compute power should quiet understand this key truth: POWER9 solutions are the basis of the realm’s first and third quickest supercomputers, the U.S. offshoot of power’s apex and Sierra installations.

IBM power servers are likely to suffer an improved can charge of entry than x86 machines. youngsters, in keeping with a study by using Quark + Lepton, IBM vigour methods operating IBM I software suffer 60% reduce complete cost of ownership than home windows/SQL Server or X86 based mostly Oracle systems. IBM’s pitch is that there are limits to what commodity architectures can do.

although, in case you are expecting surges prominent and don’t suffer margin for downtime, licensing prices, or occasional crashes a stronger commercial enterprise structure could live required.

Product description:

The S922 is a 1 or 2 socket server that presents a wide selection of core configurations and up to 4 TB of memory. Chip core speeds on the four-core are 2.8 to 3.8GHz, on the eight core are three.4 to 3.9 GHz and on the 10 core are 2.9 to three.8 GHz. the only socket edition offers up to 6 PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and both socket edition gives as much as 9 slots (three more Gen4 slots). One slot is used by means of a compulsory Ethernet adapter. depending on what's connected, up to 3 of these slots may well live reserved for different functions. IBM i is just supported on the 6 cores and 8 core processors and is proscribed to 4 cores of IBM i with a software tier of P10.

power systems are generic for his or her RAS (resiliency, availability, serviceability) aspects. IBM POWER9-primarily based systems are stated to convey up to 10X faster bandwidth acceleration and 50% more advantageous remembrance bandwidth than related x86 options. They additionally wait on the newest in records transfer technologies, including PCIe four.0 and novel NVLink and OpenCAPI interfaces. This modern server generation comes together with twice the reminiscence footprint than POWER8. alterations in the remembrance subsystem and the spend of the newest DIMMs boost fee/efficiency.

facets:

number of processors:

as much as 2

Processors supported:

IBM POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8 processor (12-core, 10-core, eight-core, four-core choices)

Cores per processor:

4, 8,10 cores per socket

maximum processor frequency/cache:

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

I/O growth slots:

the unique socket edition gives up to six PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and the two socket edition offers as much as 9 slots (3 extra Gen4 slots). One slot is used by passage of a mandatory Ethernet adapter. counting on what's connected, up to a few of these slots may live reserved for different purposes.

One entrance USB 3.0 ports – Two rear USB 3.0 ports – Two HMC 1 GbE RJ45 ports – One device port with RJ45 connector – 1x USB three.0 entrance, 2x USB three.0 rear, 2x HMC 1 GB Eth RJ45 ports, one system port with RJ45 connector, 2x exorbitant pace 25 Gb/s ports

highest reminiscence/# slots/speed:

up to four TB/32 IS RDIMM slots/up to 2666 Mhz

optimum Persistent reminiscence:

NA 

Storage controller:

S922/S924 has two interior direct connected storage connectors, an NVMe card and a SAS card

aid:

The electronic services internet portal is a unique cyber web entry factor that replaces the multiple entry points traditionally used to access IBM internet features and help. This web portal permits you to profit more straightforward access to IBM materials for guidance in resolving technical problems. The newly more desirable My systems and top rate Search functions acquire it even more convenient for digital carrier Agent-enabled consumers to track device inventory and locate pertinent fixes.

My methods provides useful studies of do in hardware and utility using tips amassed from the programs by passage of IBM electronic service Agent. stories can live found for any system linked to the client's IBMid. top rate Search combines the function of search and the value of electronic service Agent information, featuring superior search of the technical wait on knowledgebase.

“it is a pellucid choice if you already suffer a longtime IBM AIX atmosphere and want to maintain compatibility and hold efficiency. There are related alternate options now which may well live in a position to fetch you to three nines for 1/2 the costs,” pointed out a Senior manager of IT within the manufacturing industry. 

Key markets and spend situations:

IBM vitality techniques S922 server easily integrates into a company’s cloud & cognitive passage and delivers superior fee efficiency for mission crucial workloads.

POWER9 is designed from the ground up for facts intensive workloads like databases or analytics

fee:

20 core, 512 GB, $37,222. The application is costly.

“it is a product with exorbitant performance, efficiency and pecuniary indices in the IT market,” pointed out an functions Engineering in the education trade. "Deployment is very convenient, however took greater than three months. It proved competitively priced in the long run.”

Server

IBM energy S922

Max Processor Frequency

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

Max Persistent memory

N/A

kind ingredient

2U

Max Processors

2 POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8

Max reminiscence

four TB

Max Storage

four TB

cost

$37,222

Key Differentiator

appropriate processing energy


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    Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World? | killexams.com actual questions and Pass4sure dumps

    Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World? Brian Connors KB1KKC (W6NNABE) on November 11, 2004View comments about this article!

    It seems to me that much of the challenging travail these days in the tyro radio world isn't being done by hams at all, but by people working within the fraction 15 limits of the 802.11 world, dealing with antenna design, signal connectivity, and the final Mile problem.

    Spokane, WA is running a citywide WiFi system, and there are countless wardrivers and guerilla networkers who are contributing valuable information on signal propagation and infrastructure design. It seems to me the WiFi hackers of the 21st Century are the spiritual heirs to the tradition of packet radio, so why accomplish they observe so itsy-bitsy discussion of WiFi technology within the circles that contribute to places like eHam? Are these people not radio amateurs just the identical as us, with or without licenses?

    Member Comments: This article has expired. No more comments may live added. WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! If they suffer to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!

    If you suffer a public network with legitimate unrestricted access, certain they are free to tinker with it outright they want to. However, just because the limits of fraction 15 are observed does not acquire breaking into a network legal or ethical.

    I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and suffer to Run 256 bit WEP to preserve out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that even of security won't preserve out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet.

    Nearly outright radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers. Having enough knowledge of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to crash into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to live arrogant of.

      our bands, their interference   by KZ1X on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am sending this message via an 802.11 link, so, I know how useful the technology is. I hold a patent covering a technology key to the widespread deployment of 802.11, and I am also a contributing member of the IEEE standards corpse working on WiFi.

    That said: Propagation on (and antenna construction techniques for) the 2.4 GHz troupe is well known and documented. WiFi users accomplish not add any modern knowledge in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate fraction 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then intrude into tyro radio spectrum.

    Sorry. While a miniature minority of the computer network folks might become well-behaved hams, most are just interested in skirting alternate, legal means of establishing connectivity. rotten word is rotten news, even if it only has a 300' range. Would you interrogate people who hack their cordless phones to double the range, illegally, to reach to your next testing session? I didn't speculate so. There's itsy-bitsy difference.

    You may wish to examine at the ARRL's program to encourage experimentation in this troupe by hams and hams-to-be.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "If they suffer to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!"

    The computer throng is struggling with ethics. many of the younger computer users learn to hack before they learn that it is wrong to accomplish so. If I am not mistaken, they by virtue of the license are able to acquire certain modifications to their equipment. The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum and therefore, I believe not suppposed to live modified. Why is it so difficult for some folks to tarry within the law.

    If I am wrong here gladden wait on me out.

    Tim, ke5bhf

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K7NNG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually accomplish what they want and crash the rules...so I don't want them around. Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple..   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

    "The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum "

    Check your troupe charts and you'll find that most (if not all) of the spectrum used by common 802.11 data is allocated for spend by tyro Radio.

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      Headline   by AA6E on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "KB1KKC feels they should embrace WiFi technicians."

    My reaction: I'm not _that_ difficult up for a date!

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I spend my 802A/b laptop outright over modern york city.Plenty of people suffer set up Free Publc Access to WI-FI.

    Many colleges suffer non WEP systems.

    This one dude wired up outright of Central Park for WI-FI.

    Yes, if your on a non WEP system you risk being hacked.

    802B(7 channels) are like public water fountines.

    I am involved with a group of Hams and others that want to acquire more free WIFI.

    It is well-behaved for the information age, and hopefully will acquire BPL undesirable.

    I accomplish not condone ripping off someones system.802B can live free legally. Only problem is you suffer zero expectation of privacy. It is not a panacea.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tom, Thanks for the info. What about the modification for the equipment? I belive that hams are allowed to acquire some mods to there equipment. I am not certain about wifi? Are they allowed to modify the equipment?

    I Run wifi here at the house and value it. I ran great computer systems for years and it is much to live off the wire. I accomplish however protect myself by using firewall, WEP and MAC filtering to preclude theft of bandwidth and hacking of my system. This is not fool proof but it is a layer of security. To accomplish any less is irresponsible.

    Tim, ke5bhf

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W2DUG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Are these people not radio amateurs just the identical as> us, with or without licenses?

    They may live radio hobbyists, but they would not acquire well-behaved hams because (a) they probably wouldn't want to live forced to operate within the confines of the ham license, and (b) they probably don't suffer the forbearance that ham radio requires.

    Radio communication for the sake of radio communication--that is, tyro radio--is not really very challenging to them in comparison to the applications of WiFi and the access to the Internet they desire.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by NE0P on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Are these people not radio amateurs just the identical as us, with or without licenses?"

    Actually CB operators would live closer to unlicensed "Brother Hams" than WiFi developers would be, and examine at how they treat them!

    73s John NE0P

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

    The ARRL bandplan encourages us to spend one of the WIFI channels (I speculate it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and spend their callsigns as fraction of the SSID. There no understanding they can't modify outfit and experiment with the technology.

    WEP and MAC filtering are well-behaved starts but easily spoofed. I necessity to select a examine at my WIFI access point and observe if there's a passage to spin off the broadcast SSID and acquire the network "invisible".

    A local WIFI ISP in my area did a site survey around my house. 135 networks--88 wide open. Most peole set up the networks using the default settings for security. I sensation how many even bother to change the default passwords?

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "WiFi users accomplish not add any modern knowledge in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate fraction 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then intrude into tyro radio spectrum."

    Ahhh, yes... Riding that elevated & mighty horse of exclusion?

    - This is the very understanding why they are minimized & the FCC forced us to participate the troupe because of bratty attitudes shown here from the start. WiFi'rs are clearly putting us to shame when literally millions are using their packet technology to chase the world forward while bitter hams sit with 9600 baud packet from 1983 & are content with it but envious of others. If you speculate holding a license is proof of technical competency, you obviously don't suffer a clue or are intentionally blind to reality. There are 25 hams in my county yet there are over 500 Access Points, accomplish the math rocket scietists!

    "Nearly outright radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers."

    - You're either in denial or don't operate often. Tuner uppers, 2KHz "wedging", "nets on schedule", UnID'd comments & generic absurd behavior has taken over the bands along with the ever present "What's YOUR call?" How many hams suffer been caught jamming "public service" frequencies or each other? Oh yea, highly ethical hams...

    "Having enough knowledge of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to crash into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to live arrogant of"

    - A ham license test is far from a proof of knowledge because 50% of Extra-lites can't even solder a pilot light! Appliance operators suffer no WEP but I'd ante they easily become hams.

    The entire tone of this thread is rather embarrassing. How can they attract interest when it is so far from reciprocal? Resentment is no equal to respect. I respect geeks but quickly losing respect for hams because of feeble attitudes that simply haven't died although they should. Being "patient" with ham radio is accepting yesterday's standards as "good enough" for today & not planning a thrust for tomorrow. Just examine at CW!!!

    Viva la WiFi, WiMax & 802.Xx geeks!

    k4raf@yahoo.com

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA1RNE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Radio control pilots spend radio frequencies to accomplish their assignment but they are not considered radio amateurs - so why should a WiFi user live considered one?

    WiFi allows users to communicate using a set transmission protocol with and without encryption.

    Radio amateurs can change transmission modes and frequencies which is a horse of a different color.

    by the way, try using WPA encryption with TKIP. That is a much stronger passage of encryption that your neighbor kid will haul his hair out trying to decode your key from about 150 million different possibilities.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WN3VAW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi? What about the potential BPL Killer, WiMax 802.16?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The ARRL bandplan encourages us to spend one of the WIFI channels (I speculate it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and spend their callsigns as fraction of the SSID."

    Word of Caution..

    You are not permitted by the rules to spend that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a fraction 97 tyro radio device.

    Part 15 devices on the other hand accomplish not suffer this restriction.

    you might want to rethink the spend of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

    Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

    Also the spend of any digital "encyption" code may not live permitted unless the code is "publically" documented under fraction 97 rules. Most encyption methods used by manufacturers for Wifi devices may live proprietary and may only live distributed under license. In other words, the encyption code is non public.

    Any other thoughts?

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Glad to observe you got a license Brian! As you might suffer guessed though, the original WiFi Systems were designed and built by Ham's. Some Ham friends of mine built the first system better than two decades ago. They installed it in the city of Cupertino. You may suffer seen photo's of some of their original units, it was a cute idea.

    They used existing street lamp poles, both for their height, security, and the smooth availability for power. The unit was slung below the lamps cross arm with it's whip antenna pointing down, they built a nifty itsy-bitsy power plug adapter that plugged into the socket where the lamps photo-electric relay switch was inserted. The all installation per unit took about 10 minutes each. I can't quite recollect the title of their company, and I'm not so difficult up for a date either, so as to select the time to research it. You should live able to find them though.

    Isn't Ham Radio just more fun and exciting than 'war-driving!' speculate about it, 23,471 MHz of spectrum using pretty much any mode you like. Wow, who wants to futz with Pringles can antennas, when they can build actual radio stuff! Duh, actual Ham's I guess.

    Good numbers to ya out there Bubba! Your wall to wall and tree top tall on that Pringles can!

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Charles,

    Quote:

    You are not permitted by the rules to spend that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a fraction 97 tyro radio device.

    Part 15 devices on the other hand accomplish not suffer this restriction.

    you might want to rethink the spend of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

    Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

    End Quote

    You are reform about the non-commercial spend of an tyro 802.11 link. I'm certain the "ordering a pizza on the repeater" thought process will live hashed out down the line. If my remembrance serves me, that decision was left to the individual control ops rather than a blanket ruling that it was "commercial use" and not authorized.

    The ARRL is recommending they spend the eSSID to ID.

    There is much experimentation happening in this area. I did note that WEP was okay using a published HMSS Key.

    Loads of margin for much discussion on this issue!

    73 de Tom, K4NR

    From the ARRL Website:

    The ARRL Enhanced IEEE 802.11 Project calls for operation of the basic IEEE measure by licensed tyro radio operators in the upper fraction of the 2.4 GHz troupe while not significantly interfering with other tyro radio activities on that troupe or fraction 15 IEEE 802.11b operation in the band. Under fraction 97 of the FCC rules, amateurs are allowed to Run many times the power of fraction 15 operation as well as spend antennas with unrestricted gain.

    IEEE 802.11b channels 1-6 topple totally within the 2.4 GHz ham band. They are recommending that channels 2-5 live used for IEEE 802.11b operation as they accomplish not meddle with other common tyro radio operations in the troupe and are not on channels widely used by fraction 15 operations. They recommend that channel 5 live used as the primary channel for generic ARRL 802.11 network operation.

    SNIP

    ...we are working on some IEEE 802.11b issues such as outright station spend "hsmm" as their SSID, and their tyro callsign in any second SSID (eSSID) or node/AP name.

    Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/project.html

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AB2M on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Actually, this assertion regarding "unspecified codes" is a itsy-bitsy off. The "codes" referred to here are essentially the "protocol" - i.e. Baudot, PACTOR, GTOR, etc. $$97.309(b) says (in part):

    "RTTY and data emissions using unspecified digital codes must not live transmitted for the purpose of obscuring the meaning of any communication."

    Now, WEP (or any other encryption) would live an unspecified code. Since it would live easily argued that it is being used to obscure the meaning of the communication (even if you argued that it was for access control), I am confident it would live found in violation of $$97.309(b).

    I travail in the WiFi Security space professionally; there is no solution that will adequately protect a "Part 97 WiFi" installation from malicious use, much as there is no mechanism to protect a repeater from malicious use. MAC filtering and disabling the SSID broadcasts are really outright you can bring to suffer while quiet remaining compliant with fraction 97, and, as already mentioned, are bypassed trivially.

    The actual contrast here is that unlike a repeater system, the generic public is using the identical outfit as they are; thereby exposing us not only to the habitual repeater-jammer type, but to the computer hacker that doesn't play in the common RF world. Therefore, your interference (hacking) probability is sky-high from the outset.

    I don't suffer any solutions to present at this time. From a security point of view, the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF delight in would live called "security by obscurity". Remove that, and you open yourself up to the identical miscreants that suffer made the Internet a security nightmare. Or, to analogize in perhaps more familiar terms, it's like having the next FRS service participate the 2m band.

    73, Joe AB2M

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by G0GQK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Are these suggestions in the True spirit of tyro radio ? accomplish you honestly believe that that the World of WiFi is the next step forward for ham radio ?   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF delight in would live called 'security by obscurity'..."

    This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire fraction 15 movement within their own country.

    Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can suffer much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

    It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams suffer to squat & using what?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Some people emerge to believe that ham radio is simply a utility by which to connect computers. "Radio" is not the goal; instead, talking between computers is. To me, that makes computers the hobby, not ham radio. And for many of those people, if not most of them, if a better, faster, cheaper passage of connecting computers is available, they'll spend it.

    We necessity to resolve if ham radio is a hobby, or simply a means of conducting some other hobby, i.e., computers and the internet. If it is a utility, eventually it will live governed as such. If they device that 300 foot communication by WiFi is the hobby of ham radio, then so are cordless phones, garage door openers, home security systems, keyless entry to automobiles, remote operated house lights, and PLC.

    Ed

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<he only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF delight in would live called 'security by obscurity'..."

    This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire fraction 15 movement within their own country.

    Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can suffer much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

    It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams suffer to squat & using what?>>

    What about 20 meters CW?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database.

    Ed

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! CB or FRS - is a "radio" hobby.

    ARS on the other hand is about communications regardless of the limitless spectrum of operating modes available for us to use.

    "Voice" communication is only a tiny aspect of the bigger picture of tyro communications.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I accomplish Ham radio..

    I also like to wardrive and read other peoples emails that don't secure their wireless routers.....

    Isn't life nonchalant ....

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I'm outright for encourging WiFi users to become Hams, but realistically I'm not so certain they suffer that much to present them. As far as I can tell, WiFi enthusiasts are primarily motivated by the covet to suffer wireless Internet access at 'reasonable' speeds (these days meaning at least 128kbps, and preferably more like some-Mbps). The hardware experimentation is limited due to the complexity of the radios. At the discontinuance of the day, these folks want to live able to surf the Internet and quiet read their e-mail, acquire purchases on Amazon.Com, and, yes, potentially visit porn sites as they wish without anyone telling them otherwise.

    Some of the people doing outright this are interested in the technical aspects of, e.g., radio design, modulation, propagation, etc., and tyro radio has something to present them there. On the other hand, when it comes to Internet connectivity -- their main goal -- tyro radio tends to live far more restrictive and much, much slower than what they already have.

    ---Joel KolstadKE7CDV

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! However, K4RAF IS in the FCC database. OK, sensation why QRZ doesn't list him? Their choice or his? I am always suspicious of people who want to transmute ham radio into the hobby of computer, but in this case, he IS a ham, so I suffer to retract my implication!

    ED

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! ED

    I'm not moaning at you directly :

    People necessity to realise that the QRZ data ground is an independant web site. People can select wether or not they enter thier own details to it.

    Don't you guys suffer a facility to examine up calls on the FCC site?

    Best wishes

    SteveG7HEU / M0HEU.

    I'm not 'knocking' QRZ either and I'm gay to suffer my entry there.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC9AGG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! amen, discontinuance of thread...good discussion...it's not "big brother" watching, it's anybody and everybody getting any information they want via the internet...all you suffer to accomplish is examine me up!!( suffer a peep exhibit for yourself).   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N2WEC on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What the Hell is "WiFi"? I suffer yet to observe a well-behaved explanation of just what it is. Whats the deal?   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database

    Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is germane to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

    (PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! N2WEC

    For you:

    http://www.lordpercy.com/wifi_explained.htm

    Steve.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > What the Hell is "WiFi"?

    It's market speak. WiFi = "Wireless Fidelity". Means the network interface between computers is radio based, rather than wires.

    A lot of local-area networks (LANs) now spend 802.11b measure RF networks. This is much for building area nets and laptop users, since the laptop can live connected without being physically teathered. Means I can walk into a meeting with my laptop and quiet live on line.

    802.11b is only one of a family of 802.11 wireless protocols. These days 802.11g, which is faster, is becoming popular.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W2EV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless experimenters of 1904. Wouldn't it live nonchalant if, instead of treating them like bandits or undesirables, they found a passage to embrace and Elmer them to their (and society's) benefit?

    Think in modern ways. This could work.

    Ev Tupis, W2EV

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KD5RGJ

    Either you are experiencing QRM or you should hit the 'refresh' button on your browser.

    Steve.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2EV / Ev

    It's a itsy-bitsy like short wave listening for the 21st centuary:

    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,39020369,2118000,00.htm

    Steve

      WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Just did a wardrive this afternoon, using a 7dB magnet mount & a 200mW Senao card:

    Here in pastoral South Central Virginia, my county has 25 lively hams at the most, yet I logged 155 Access Points in just 1 of 5 towns. 11 were WEP'd. 75% were defaulted to channel 6 & no changes made to anything. That is no one's fault but the "system administrator" since only 2 sites actually present open access (the library & a car dealer)

    ?QRZ? Oh gladden feel free: k4raf@yahoo.com

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! That warchalking article from London was very challenging Steve.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, now that I've seen some of the responses, I should give my own position. (Note that I spend "hack" in the nonintrusive sense -- wifi hackers are people trying to fetch the most out of 802.11 equipment, not necessarily trying to crash security.)

    What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly about communications. What the wifi hackers are doing is finding ways to fetch a miniscule signal to propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and to that discontinuance they're bringing modern interest to microwave engineering. They're the ones doing the homebrew antenna projects, trying to device out how to milk that final dB of gain out of an antenna; essentially, they're trying to fetch the most out of microwave QRP. And they're doing outright that with type-accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

    Okay, so it's only one mode, a form of packet radio. But I quiet speculate there's enough ingenuity and original thinking going on to accept the wifi hackers.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There's an abominable lot of painting with broad brushes going on here. Most people involved in wireless networking aren't hackers any more than most hams are QRMers. Yes, both communities are plagued by a miniature number of sociopaths and poseurs, but we've suffered similars fools since the dawn of telecommunications.

    There are huge opportunities for hams to innovate with wireless technology, but connecting consumers to the internet isn't one of them; fraction 97 precludes this, and anything modern would require stupendous differentiation to gain mind-share. But mesh networking, peer-to-peer protocols, compression schemes, location determination -- outright of these could live pursued by hams with cheap off-the-shelf hardware operating under fraction 97 on tyro bands.

    Most of the communications revolution is in front of us, not behind us.

    73,

    Dave, AA6YQ

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I spend "hacker" in the sense of someone who likes to accomplish challenging things with the equipment. It's actually something of a compliment in the computer world, and that sense (more or less the original sense of the word) is coming back somewhat. I refer directly to the O'Reilly title Wireless Hacks, whose hacks are outright about things you can accomplish with your 802.11 installation and how to accomplish them and nothing to accomplish with trying to compromise someone else's network.   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W6NNABE, I don't live of value this as a 'put down' but, how feeble are you? I am thinking that your just not feeble enough, or maybe not experienced enough, to examine at "RF" as a widely dynamic engineering pursuit.

    Thats nonchalant though! It's well-behaved that you are seeking broad perspective. I just speculate you necessity a itsy-bitsy more experience.

    No harm dog, I'm up with it (or is that I'm down with it)!

    .- .-. ____ . ____ de John

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AB0SF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! After reading the majority of the postings on this thread, I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually wasted the time to obtain my tyro Radio License. Now I suffer a better understanding why my colleagues give me grief about being a Ham. Their image to the leisure of society totally sucks at the present time.

    Don't fetch me wrong, I delight in this hobby profusely, but this narrow-minded, holier-than-though crap has got to fade to the wayside, folks, lest they wither away into a sidebar in the history books.

    While companies like Intel are producing 10 GHz xvcrs the size of a microprocessor, what are they doing? Flaming people who suffer an interest in a certain aspect in radio but who aren't hams. fetch off your high-horses, and examine at this as a marketing opportunity. There is a direct correlation between today's crackers (They're certainly not hackers.) and tomorrow's hams. Let's live True to the tyro Tradition and exhibit them the way, not their nostrils. suffer fun. I hope your boat anchor keeps you warm this winter.

    P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War-Drivers are True to the hacker-ethic. They merely hunt out the networks and testify their potential flaws. No intentional connection, no intentional "theft of service," no breaking into computers on the wireless networks' network. Don't assume everyone enjoying this niche hobby is a malicious fool like the media stories value to point out.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Let's clarify things ...

    From "The Jargon File" published by Eric S. Raymond:

    <i>hacker: n.

    [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]

    1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary, usefully amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in particular.

    2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

    3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.

    4. A person who is well-behaved at programming quickly.

    5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does travail using it or on it; as in ‘a Unix hacker’. (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fortunate them congregate.)

    6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might live an astronomy hacker, for example.

    7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

    8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to learn sensitive information by poking around. Hence password hacker, network hacker. The reform term for this sense is cracker.</i>

    Compare with:

    <i>cracker: n.

    One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). An earlier attempt to establish worm in this sense around 1981--82 on Usenet was largely a failure.

    Use of both these neologisms reflects a strong revulsion against the theft and vandalism perpetrated by cracking rings. The neologism “cracker” in this sense may suffer been influenced not so much by the term “safe-cracker” as by the non-jargon term “cracker”, which in Middle English meant an obnoxious person (e.g., “What cracker is this identical that deafs their ears / With this abundance of supernumerary breath?” — Shakespeare's King John, Act II, Scene I) and in modern colloquial American English survives as a barely gentler synonym for “white trash”.

    While it is expected that any actual hacker will suffer done some naughty cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to suffer outgrown the covet to accomplish so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to fetch around some security in order to fetch some travail done).

    Thus, there is far less overlap between hackerdom and crackerdom than the mundane reader misled by sensationalistic journalism might expect. Crackers minister to gather in small, tight-knit, very secretive groups that suffer itsy-bitsy overlap with the huge, open poly-culture this lexicon describes; though crackers often like to report themselves as hackers, most True hackers account them a sunder and lower form of life. An smooth passage for outsiders to spot the contrast is that crackers spend grandiose screen names that conceal their identities. Hackers never accomplish this; they only rarely spend noms de guerre at all, and when they accomplish it is for array rather than concealment.

    Ethical considerations aside, hackers device that anyone who can't imagine a more challenging passage to play with their computers than breaking into someone else's has to live pretty losing. Some other reasons crackers are looked down on are discussed in the entries on cracking and phreaking. observe also samurai, dark-side hacker, and hacker ethic. For a portrait of the typical teenage cracker, observe warez d00dz.</i>

    I account myself a hacker because I travail on open source software build intricate websites. I suffer no interest in defacing or breaking into systems. Ham radio is hacker culture before there were computers. They suffer convieniently forgotten that fact. Back to your regular eHam discussion thread. Troll on!

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where are outright the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more like pencil neck geek looking at somebody's dirty underwear.   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote>Where are outright the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more like pencil neck geek looking at somebody's dirty underwear.</quote>

    You've failed to acquire the distinction between those who accomplish it for the technical challenge. I've done wardriving for the simple intelectual curiosity of understanding propogation on 2.4 gig. Not everyone is reading your spam, er I mean, mail.

    Listen, wardrivers and 802.11b tinkerers suffer the radio bug. They are inquisitive about learning how radio works. Why are screwing the pooch by showing their uglier side and losing a captive audience?

    I've met some script kiddies and wannabes. They turned into actual techies because somebody took the time to exhibit them The birthright Path.

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by AD7BK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! So if they used drill channle 3 and with their ham ticket can they Run more than the fraction 15 max? like 50 watts or even 100 watts? And would they live able to spend it with WEP? Since fraction 97 states they can't spend code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N5BSD on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [quote]If they suffer to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism! [/quote]

    Most 'WarDrivers' simply map networks and upload the data to databases I myself suffer done this to observe what is around my area or between here and Austin when I fade there (TONS of 2WIRE nodes on the default channel :| )

    Wardriving is not doing any illegal or shady really. now breaking wep keys and accessing networks with out leave from the network owner is something entirely different. So gladden accomplish not lump outright wardrivers in to the category of crackers, phreakers and the leisure who accomplish harm in their practices. To accomplish this would live like motto outright Hams are feeble men who accomplish not accomplish anything but harp about modern technology and only spend outdated technology for nothing more than a hobby practice that should suffer long since been do to pasture. Since they know this is not so, gladden accomplish not over generalize.

    That is just my two cents worth of rant. Thanks for the bandwidth.

    73 All

    JohnN5BSD

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wardrivers definetly suffer the "radio bug"

    They are interested in signals and how far they can propogate. Hackers on the other hand is a totally different matter.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [I'm quoting a lot of different people here, sorry for the confusion this will cuause]

    >WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless>experimenters of 1904.

    Mmm... I speculate there's one astronomical difference: In 1904, the medium 'wireless experimenter' had a decent shot at significnatly advancing the world's collective knowledge about wireless communications. In 2004, while it's certainly not _out of the question_ that a WiFi experimenter would accomplish so, it's _far_ less likely: WiFi is already built on top of _very_ intricate communication techniques. The simple fact is that relatively few people understand that complexity, and hence the likelihood of increasing knowledge in the are is greatly diminished.

    >Wouldn't it live nonchalant if,>instead of treating them like bandits or>undesirables, they found a passage to embrace and Elmer >them to their (and society's) benefit?

    I don't speculate anyone's suggested treating them like bandits, we're trying to device out how to best attract them to tyro radio -- if there's a point in doing so.

    >What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly>about communications. What the wifi hackers are >doing>is finding ways to fetch a miniscule signal to>propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and>to that discontinuance they're bringing modern interest to>microwave engineering.

    Yes.

    >They're the ones doing the>homebrew antenna projects, trying to device out how>to milk that final dB of gain out of an antenna;>essentially, they're trying to fetch the most out of>microwave QRP.

    The problem is that it's one heck of a lot harder to device out whether or not you're actually making improvements to that microwave QRP system when your main indicator is some highly filtered 'signal strength' indication from software on a PC. I speculate the tyro radio microwave guys suffer it birthright in that they start with spectum analyzers or at least CW when they're trying to acquire system improvements -- it gives much more immediate feedback.

    Look at the specifications on www.cantenna.com for their main product:

    Frequency: 2400-2500 MHzGain: 12 dbiBeam Width: Approx. 30 degreesImpedance: 50 OhmMax input: 50 WattsVSWR: <1.5:1 avg.

    Uh huh. What's the polarization? What's the shape of that beam -- is it symmetrical or not? Since when accomplish people talk about 'average' VSWRs and not maximums?

    These guys are not going to live submitting papers to the IEEE any time soon. :-) There's nothing wrong with that, but they're really in a different league than the W7PUAs and W8JK's of the world; it gets back to the conception that, no, these guys are not to modern communications what wireless experimenters were in 1904.

    >And they're doing outright that with type->accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

    Well, not always! :-) There's a thriving market for 2.4GHz amplifiers out there, and I doubt a lot of them ever went through character acceptance.

    >P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War->Drivers are True to the hacker-ethic. They merely>seek out the networks and testify their potential>flaws.

    I speculate most War Drivers are driven (pun unintended) by the covet to check their e-mail every 10 minutes and brag to their buddies about how many open access points they found. measure teenager-crowd motivation for doing just about anything -- being popular! I accomplish agree that most of it is perfectly benign. (Somewhat like 'stealing a kiss' from a woman many decades ago, before their cultural decided that that always constitute sexual harassment and will likely leave you in jail.)

    I'm outright for encouraging WiFi'ers to associate the ranks of tyro radio, it's just unclear to me exactly what _we_ suffer to present them. Regulations prohibit the main thing they're after -- wireless Internet access who no restrictions on the data being transferred, including whether or not it's encrypted. I will buy the controversy that there's a lot that tyro radio could give to the WiFi'ers who are interested in propagation at 2.4GHz.

    ---Joel

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by N5PVL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:-------------------------> PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database

    Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is germane to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

    (PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)-------------------------

    Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who array a strong anti-ham attitude.

    Nuff said.

    Charles, N5PVL

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AB2RC on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! " PS. K4RAF is not found in the QRZ database."

    it is listed in the fcc uls database.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well………….In scanning this thread, I observe at least one well-behaved thing coming out of this discussion: The “Holier-Than-Thou” throng now has a choice!

    Whenever they’re fire particularly vitriolic, they can either bash the “CB Crowd” (the feeble standby), or the modern “WI-FI Bunch”…………And they don’t even suffer to change their rhetoric! (You know….”Lazy”, “Ignores the Rules”, “Illegal Operation”, yada-yada-yada, blah-blah-blah.)

    Remember:…. Variety is the Spice of Life!

    Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4NR on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:

    And would they live able to spend it with WEP? Since fraction 97 states they can't spend code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.

    End Quote

    From the ARRL:

    Quote:

    While IEEE 802.11b allows WEP, an encryption algorithm, tyro Radio transmissions are characterized as being an open media. That is, tyro radio operators anticipate and assume that their transmissions are being listened to around the world with no presumption of privacy. And, the FCC even mandates that hams will not encode/encrypt to obscure meaning.

    End Quote

    I thought I read something about using a standardized WEP protocol at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/wep.html but did not suffer time to accomplish any further research.

    I also found the following with seems to contradict the first:

    Quote:

    Thus, the HSMM Working Group respectfully asks the ARRL Board of Directors for theirsupport of this needed regulatory change and urges the Board to support the evolution andfiling of a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) permitting the spend of encryption and strongsecurity protocols on domestic transmissions above 50 MHz.

    End Quote

    Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm/WhitePaper7.pdf

    I also read that there is some experimentation happening outside of the 2.4 gigahertz band.

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who array a strong anti-ham attitude.>

    As many, or more, others suffer voluntarily left QRZ due to Fred's attitude. Fred has a birthright to accomplish what he wants, of course, but his attitude has become very narrow minded and monocratic resulting in unexplained banning and guilt by association.

    QRZ has now become a reflection of Fred's morals. eHam is quiet the best space to fetch outright the views on a theme as it remains a True open forum.

    The QRZ database is incomplete, as it only includes hams that suffer not treaded on Fred's breakable psyche.

    Now, back to their original subject...WiFi

    I suffer to admit that I am not up on WiFi. Their city doesn't suffer it, but the city to the south of us does.

    The question of whether or not they should embrace WiFi pioneers is a well-behaved one, but what about hams taking on WiFi as a modern ground for exploration? The Internet was fecund ground and has been used by hams as a very well-behaved instrument (anyone disagreeing will suffer to accomplish so by sending me traffic on the ARES nets. muster K8MHZ QTH Muskegon, Michigan USA, or by snail mail, as a response on the Internet that hams don't spend it would live considered silly :) ) and I speculate that WiFi would live much putty in the hands of skilled tyro 'sculptors'.

    I contacted the VP of the wireless provider in the city that has it. It is about 16 miles to the nearest antenna. I asked if he minded if I tried building a elevated gain antenna to try to fetch into his system from here. He not only liked the idea, he told me what types of outfit people were using to fetch the best coverage. He also was interested in learning of my progress. When I first called him, I knew even less than I know now about WiFi but he filled me in the best he could.

    Today's hams may not live able to build useable gear out of discarded trinkets (some can! I am talking about the medium ham) but they know how to build elevated gain antennas, they know a itsy-bitsy about probagation, they can accomplish nonchalant things like bounce signals, acquire computer programs to spin laptops into repeater controllers, etc. I speculate if today's ham tackled WiFi like they did the Internet, WiFi would live so widespread that BPL would suffer no marketable value.

    Granted, WiFi exploration is no space for someone that thinks HF QRP CW is the respond to every conceivable question, but it is fertile, nearly untilled ground for the advancement of radio.

    We necessity to realize that digital radio is here to stay. It is not just used for text comms anymore. The benefits of digital voice communications are demonstrated by digital cell phones. accomplish a itsy-bitsy research. My Nextel can hit a tower 6 miles away from my basement with 600mW on a daily basis. Try that with a handheld. Analog voice systems will soon become a thing of the past in paid for communications. I assume it will tarry with ham radio for another century.

    Ham radio was once the forefront of communication exploration. I dismay that they are heading toward becoming itsy-bitsy more than a museum of same. They necessity to incorporate elevated precipitate digital communications into their bag of tricks and WiFi seems to live the space to accomplish it.

    Operators in their area suffer been struggling with Packet radio since before I got my ticket. To this day they can't provide for portable stations without a elevated failure rate. How can this compete with elevated precipitate Internet? It can, but it takes more tech savvy than I have. Why not replacing packet with elevated precipitate 2.4 gig digital Internet comms? The faculty to transmit great amount of data, including pictures, in a short time very reliably is what people exact today. Amatuer radio operators suffer the license and skill to live able to accomplish it without a utility conncection, if they resolve to supersede their digipeaters with elevated precipitate 2.4 gig repeaters. Since they would quiet live sending the identical character of comms that they accomplish with other modes, they would suffer no understanding to struggle with encryption. I speculate it would live very impressive to most anyone to live able to spend ham radio as a totally wireless replacement for parts of the Internet.

    But then, what accomplish I know? I suffer been struggling with CW for years and my brain keeps trying to acquire pictures out of it...

    Stupid brain!!

    Anyway, I speculate WiFi or similar could live a saving grace for amateurs.

    And for the handful of you guys that will relate me to Just Learn the Code...Hey, I'm trying! I will fetch it, but I a) suffer itsy-bitsy spend for it other than passing my ham tests and b) don't suffer much time to accomplish it because I spend too much time doing stuff like eHam and regular ham and travail and Run the kid around and cleanly up dog...

    I'll quit there and say

    73,

    Mark K8MHz

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K3ESE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What would my wife drill if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...?   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <What would my wife drill if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...? >

    Wife...Wifi

    You could relate her it was a spelling error!!

    K8MHz

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I speculate if today's ham tackled WiFi like they did the Internet, WiFi would live so widespread that BPL would suffer no marketable value."

    This has been a point of mine since BPL showed up on the map long ago. I quiet observe BPL as DOA, just examine at SBC FTTX project, minute today on dailywireless.org, which even mentions developing a "system on a chip". You can learn outright about 802.11x, 802.16x & 802.2x wireless on that site.

    Where has outright the experimentation spirit gone? Having a license doesn't live of value you know which passage the signal comes out of the Pringles can!

    Now instead of considering someone's opinion, research, taste & personal perspective, the kneejerks Run to examine up your call? How childish...

    This all thread says so much about their current covet to "advance the art".

    ZZZzzzzzzzzzz

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by WA3KYY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and suffer to Run 256 bit WEP to preserve out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that even of security won't preserve out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet."

    Don't you spend MAC even access lists on your WiFi access point/router? Short of modifying the hardware to clone the MAC address of the WiFi cards in your home, this blocks others from connecting.

    I suffer my home WiFi LAN set up that passage and suffer never had anyone access my LAN. I also spend a discrete SSID that is not advertised along with 256-bit WEP encryption.

    73,Mike

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And before you had WiFi to fill your"intellectual" interest in 2.4 gig propagationdid you spend a lotta time evesdropping on thewireless phones up there-- outright in the interest of science of course?   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another thought, I speculate WiFi could live just the thing to do the lid (no pun) on BPL in many areasbut is bragging about the weaknesses in the WiFi system going to wait on or Hurt the BPL interests sell theirstuff? If WiFi really takes off are they going to suffer to give up a troupe to it just to preserve BPL at bay?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I suffer installed my Wifi behind my firewall router.

    My network is therefore inaccesable through the WiFi transciever to my PC's.

    This arrangement provides for additional security and keeps my networked PC's out of the "loop" through the "external" WiFi system.

    Users that can hack past the WEP security feature on my Wifi transciever will only find themselves up against the router's firewall. They might access the outside internet connection, but thats about it.

    They would suffer the identical even of difficulty gaining access into my network from the "outside" using the Wifi connection, as they would if they tried it remotely from some space over the internet.

    Not a likely proposition.

    In fact, I can even leave the WIFi tranciever wide open with itsy-bitsy worry. The worst case scenerio is that they might fetch access and spend my internet connection.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Don't you spend MAC even access lists on your WiFi access point/router?" (WA3KYY)

    Thanks for making that point. Yes, I accomplish now. I foolishly thought I could lock my barn with a hasp and a nail, but discovered the difficult passage the only passage to preserve the horse thieves out is with actual locks. In other words, WEP lonely is not enough. Of course, MAC even access lists are not foolproof either, since anybody really equipped for hacking in can find a passage through spoofing, if nothing else.

    I would encourage experimenters to tweak or modify their hardware and software for modern applications or better performance. My initial post here was based on the language used by KB1KKC, "wardrivers", "guerilla networkers", "hackers", outright of which refer these days to individuals intent on defeating security measures and/or surreptitiously using services installed by and paid for by someone else. At one time "hacking" did live of value about the identical thing as transpose engineering, but the meaning has changed because of what many "hackers" did with their resulting information.

    It's simply that I don't anticipate to suffer someone who is uninvited and unwelcome picknicking in my back yard, even without my knowledge. And it seems that the only solution is to build a bigger fence.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Joel (KE7CDV), There is nothing that limits these guys from doing similar researches (as some suffer claimed to live involved in) on tyro Radio. In fact, there is a strong necessity for them to shy away from the toy RF stuff they are playing with, and accomplish actual microwave studies.

    There is a lot of SHF spectrum out there that could live used for some really wide bandwidth elevated baud rate communication. The regulations accomplish not preclude this! If they are worried about that, just drop an e-mail to the FCC to relate them the communication protocall they intend to use, and zipzap, fade to town!

    I will observation further after I suffer read the leisure of the most recent commentaries!

    WA6BFH 18:57 UTC

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    Looks like the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to fetch rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to rescue the hobby?

    .:

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where is Andy Kaufman when they necessity him??? (Mighty Mouse)

    .....Oh....

    Well, in that case, where is John Kerry when they necessity him???

    .....Oh....

    Sorry to hear that, too.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">Looks like the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to fetch rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to rescue the hobby?</quote>

    Yeah, it's called you and everyone in the community. It starts by getting off their devout wars about CW and what is considered "real tyro Radio". The spectre of BPL is real. They can fight amongst ourselves and lose the ARS or travail together.

    /me disgusted with the implication that my licence class = my worth in tyro Radio.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets examine at this from a different angle for a minute. To paraphrase Brian's first thought (not to do words in your mouth kid) 'Wow, this WiFi stuff is really cool, Ham's should embrace this, afterall how else can anyone experiment with SHF'. He could suffer scratched his chin and asked himself, 'how could I build up a really nonchalant broad bandwidth communications system, that would beat the pants off this WiFi stuff'?

    Several years ago my club started to develop a elevated precipitate broad bandwidth 'Communications Data Project'. The system involved the spend of 10 GHz Gunnplexer transceivers, of the character typically found in commercial door openers, like those found on the doors of grocery stores. These units provided about 20 to 100 mW into a Horn antenna with 10's of dB's of gain. They also found a collection of miniature parabolic dish antennas, about the size of a Frisbee, that would suffer added some 30 dB's to the RF discontinuance of the hardware.

    We designed a very nice I.F. (thats Intermediate Frequency) circuit board at 50 MHz (another minimally utilized Ham band). These boards incorporated the power supply, and also the modulator for the Gunnplexer. Additional realestate was provided for on the PCB's to allow other logic circuitry to live easily built up by the experimenter. Also, the filter network on the I.F. could live unplugged on a submerge header, and replaced with a Murata 6 KHz bandwidth filter, so as to acquire the I.F. also a very cute itsy-bitsy DX receiver on 6 Meters. I was laying out a 6 Meter transmitter board, waiting for replies to reach in on the project.

    We were offering the Gunnplexers free of charge for anyone who purchased an I.F kit. They were selling these kits at cost! THEY HAD NO TAKERS! You can quiet find the write-ups of their plans on the Internet, accomplish a Google search. The only interest shown was from some European Ham's that wanted only the Gunnplexers, which they would not live tax'ed into oblivion for importing, because those were scrap surplus. U.S. Ham's showed no interest at all!

    I could fade on to point out the fallicy in the conception that "Hackers", or "Crackers" are really a benign bunch but, I'm certain outright these hackers suffer read, "Masters of Deception" by Michelle Slatalla and Joshua Quittner. This book sits on the shelf next to my tyro Radio "Handbook", my Shrader on "Electronic Communication" and other books on radio and technology.

    .- .-. .--- --- .... -. (the first digital mode)

      Hackers vs Crackers, gladden learn the difference.   by K9DI on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Hi,Wayne K9DI es Leader Dog Riot here. I've beenreading this thread and one glaring error stands out.The perjorative spend of the term "hacker". Hackers are not evil or malicious. The malicious ones are known as "crackers".The definition of a hacker is someonewanting to learn, experiment and explore a theme (usually used in conjunction with computers). By this definition every ham that modifies a rig, makes an antenna, or just tinkers with their gear to fetch the best performance out of it is a "hacker".A "cracker", on the other hand (like Kevin Mitnick), is someone that exploits known or newly discovered flaws in hardware or software to accomplish malicious things.The above definitions are loosely paraphrased from the original jargon file.Vy 73deWayne K9DIk9di (at) k9di (dot) orgP.S. arrogant to live a "Hacker" (in the classical sense)   RE: Hackers vs Crackers, gladden learn the differen   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wayne has a sound point.

    I recollect when I ran a BBS in the 1980's that the term "Hacker" was actually a person that was highly respected and knowledgable about early PC's and thier software applications.

    I even recollect one of the first computer stores I ever seen was actually called:

    "Harry the Hacker Computers"

    The title denoted a friendly space with knowledgeable staff.

    Later on after the "Mitnick" case, the term "hacker" took a downturn because of the mainstream media's modern interpretation.

    I speculate the term "Hacker" was later replaced with the word "Guru" Essentially, they are hypothetical to live of value the identical exact thing.

    Perhaps "Guru" will become a rotten word someday just like "Hacker" did.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWMLatenight BBSFidonet 221:00: ?? I forget now..lol

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I found the exact subpage on the Tech Bench Elmers web site that refers to the Microwave Data Project (which was offered in 1997 by the way).

    http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2775/microwave_notice.html

    73 all! I speculate I've had enough of this line of conjecture! de John

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    KB1JCY

    Don't feel rotten Doug, you can shove liberty down my throat. I can suffer that. observe you when I fetch to Berlin, NH.

    73, W6TH

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by N8EKT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I AM A HAM THAT also WORKS FOR A ISP.WE suffer BEEN INSTALLING 900MHZ, 2.4GHZ, AND 5.8GHZ WIFIFOR SEVERAL YEARS.IT SEEMS TO ME THE HAMS suffer CLEARLY DROPPED THE BALL WHEN IT COMES TO WIRELESS DATA AND THESE BANDS.WITH THE RF POWER LIMITS HAM'S ARE ALLOWED ON THESE BANDS, much COVERAGE COULD live HAD AT A REASONABLE COST.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">KB1JCY

    Don't feel rotten Doug, you can shove liberty down my throat. I can suffer that. observe you when I fetch to Berlin, NH.

    73, W6TH</quote>

    My what a constructive post. W6TH r0x0rz teh astronomical one !!11!!1 :rolleyes:

    Who's shoving stuff down your throat? liberty is a choice you make, OM. You can select to preserve things moving forward or engage in a jihad. I've chosen to chase forward.

    The point is that the continuing jihad attitude is not serving the ARS. It's simple QRM and people quit communicating about key issues like licence resturctuing and recruiting the next generation of amateurs. accomplish you agree that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? accomplish you thing the flame wars on boards like this one are helping their cause?

    73 de KB1JCY

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll> QRZ, or who array a strong anti-ham attitude.

    It would live nice if that were true; and it is what Fred used to claim. But enough people suffer called him on the contrast between his claim and the reality of the site, that he has recently taken to giving a more honest explanation. You fetch bounced if you 'piss off' (Fred's term) one of the moderators.

    Glen, for examplle, flat out refused to sanction one of the most obnoxious jerks on the board, simply because he happened to agree with the jerk's position.

    On the other hand, Glen banned contributors that Glen himself had identified as sticking to the issues, simply because he disagreed with them.

    Fred, of course, has ever birthright to ban whomever he wants, but I'm joyous that he's now at least being honest about why he bans people.

    It's too rotten that so many people look to speculate that being allowed/banned on QRZ indicates anything other than a willingness to question sacred cows.

    It's even sadder that so many people speculate that there's only one True view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As irritating as I suffer found Marty to live in the past, I find that I suffer to agree with him when he says:

    >>“It's even sadder that so many people speculate that there's only one True view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".<<

    Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Sacred cows acquire well-behaved burgers, Marty. Pass the salsa. ;-)   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KB1JCYDo you agree that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? accomplish you thing the flame wars on boards like this one are helping their cause?-------------------------------------------------

    No Doug, I don't believe that ham radio has anything to accomplish with EHAM or QRZ.COM. As long as there is income coming into the Gov't, there will always live a certain interest to suffer and to hold. They will suffer ham radio as long as the mfg's are in the necessity of income as well. Ham radio is built around money and when there are no longer any buyers of ham equipment, ham radio will diminish. My view and I select ham radio as I would a grain of salt as it is no longer ham radio but thrust to talk. These $10,000 radios are an instance and as long as there are buyers, there will always live ham radio.

    Then again, should ham radio become invalid, so what? They suffer plenty of modern ideas and inventions to preserve us occupied.

    .: 73, W6TH

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    AE6IP

    I heard from the grape vine that QRZ.COM could not composit and overloaded Fred's difficult drive and he couldn't afford another. So Fred deleted a few dozen with sorrow, but it had to live done.

    May live when he gets more donations he will select outright those back that he deleted. I certain hope so and being the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am certain he will give outright a second chance.

    .:

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > May live when he gets more donations he will select all> those back that he deleted. I certain hope so and being> the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am certain he> will give outright a second chance.

    but will he give us outright rides in his Cessna?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="AE6IP">but will he give us outright rides in his Cessna?</quote>

    Feh. miniature planes and me don't mix.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Cessna-very pedestrian. Twin engine private jet is another.

    Moving birthright along. I understand many suffer been kicked off of QRZ ,consider it a statement of free speech.

    802b is built into every modern laptop. One cannot wait on but hit the scan key. I fetch 3 open networks just by parking on WIFI CH-6.

    If a system is open, it is public access. I did not travel in a car. I just turned on my IBM laptop and the open networks appeared on my screen in my apt.

    Many that buy those 802B $70 routers from radio shack are just consumers. They suffer no interest in ham radio. I got tired of getting my modem card ripped out when I moved the computer. I bought a router for my own use.

    No one has hacked me...yet. Many times it is just people's built in 802B auto activation, that discontinuance up in my router. I accomplish not necessity 12megabit wide connections.

    What many hams ARE doing to fight BPL, simply leave thier wireless router open. My electric company is going to present BPL for $35/month.

    Having an open system is not always ignorance.My 802.b router always on, is a deterent to my neighbors getting BPL. Rat Shack also sells the booster amplifiers. I suffer no conception what the power output is.

    That is where I observe Ham Radio falling into WIFI asBPL prevention. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I also recollect when a Hacker was just a difficult working computer operator. They would examine for open doors on the internet. They would accomplish NO HARM.

    The hacker of today is arrogant to live a silver collarcriminal. Very unfortunite indeed. Robin Hood gave back to the poor.

    The silver collar hacker will chase on to bunco, electronic credit card theft, and getting extra minutes out of stolen pre-paid cell phones.

    As others pointed out 900MHZ, 1.2, and 2.4 gig were ham radio frequencies. spend it or loose it. The identical could befall with HF. Perhaps the FCC will legalize those 100W 10-12M radio's. It would live like GMRS for truckers.

    Try 10M from time to time. It can live great. It can live dead.

    Bottom line is that any other under utilized troupe will live taken away.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KA4KOE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I value my wifi 802.11b network. examine at my profile picture on QRZ (I haven't been banned, mainly because QRZ is a impecunious second to Eham, and I don't frequent it), and you'll observe my D Link router.

    My wife can surf from her laptop in bed, and says the wireless card for her laptop was the best gift I've given her.

    Feeleep

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KC8ZTJ on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wait a minute, seems like I just took a test that talked about radio amateurs and radio control. I must suffer missed something. Hmmm. That said, I would suffer to agree. Wifi is a kindred spirit. I suffer been in PDA users group meetings where they discussed yagi antennas and signal propagation. The contrast in the PDA user group and my Ham Radio group is largely a matter of age.   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can suffer much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.">>

    Maybe they necessity to interrogate the question, why accomplish people speculate it's "fun" driving around trying to crash into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?

    What happens when these people accomplish fetch licenses? How will they fortunate into a hobby that DOES require following "rules and seeking approval"?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi is a 'kindred spirit to Ham Radio' -- give me a flipping crash -- LOL! I suffer been to some of these Pringles can sessions. Its like, wow man, it really seemed to travail better when I stood on my head! Thats their conception of 'signal propagation studies'.

    I'm more worried about the Ham radio community though with comments like, 'try 10 Meters, sometimes it works well-behaved but, sometimes not. How about researching siganl propagation to learn about Sporadic E layer propagation, or how the Earth/Sun position works over the various months of the year and can enhance F layer skip, even as they decline in the 11 year sunspot cycle.

    I liked AC0H's comment, basically begging the question 'why accomplish they want people that are wedded to breaking the rules'. They suffer lost much of the SHF spectrum! They will lose more unless they develop really nonchalant uses and practices on it ourselves. Of course, that does not fortunate easily into the modern Ham Radio view on plug and play!

      RE: their bands, their interference   by KC0LTV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What this thread is showing is the ham radio community's unwillingness to fetch with the times, something they necessity to accomplish if they wish to survive! There's nothing wrong with WiFi as a hobby. With ham radio, one could select odds of their allocation here by using the higher powers they are allowed to use. Of course, the whiny, close-minded, and judgmental throng will observe 2.4 Ghz as kiddie-land to live avoided in lieu of the "real" 1200 bps VHF packet links the old-timers use...   RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Maybe they necessity to interrogate the question, why accomplish people speculate it's "fun" driving around trying to crash into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?"

    *** elevated Horse Alert*** Where is wardriving defined as "trying to crash into networks"?

    AirSnort/NetStumbler is the automated logging of Access Points, SSID's, Signal Strength, signal-to-noise, channel & if the AP is running WEP. If you add a GPS to the setup, you can map the results of any signal survey using celebrated mapping programs. I spend my laptop in the truck without ever having to handle anything, much like cellular drive testing.

    No "breaking in" involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to spend the connection. What does ham radio present in parallel that isn't at least 20 years old? Packet? : )

    Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad graze runs out of rosey paint for your tired feeble cliches'...

      listen, you immature punks   by NN2U on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As a member in well-behaved standing of the CWA (the Century Wireless Association), I feel that no-code, WiFi and BPL will live the ruination of ham radio.

    Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would live the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away.

    Following the second World War, against my stern warnings, ham radio operators began using unique sideband. Suddenly their precious bands were filled with unintelligible gibberish. Were their government not sedulous with Korea and Joe Stalin's commies, they doubtless would suffer taken away their bands due to vulgar misuse and abominable operating procedure.

    All the so-called "advances" from then to today suffer steadily chipped away at the cornerstone of tyro radio. all portions of their bands are now filled with odd bleeps, chirps and deedle-deedles that anywise translate into idle text chitchat when connected to one of those infathomable computing boxes. This union of electric calculating box and ham radio transmitters is surely the travail of the devil, and a major contributor to the weakening ethical fabric of their nation.

    All you immature whippersnappers look to trust about is "connectivity," as if ham radio was outright about bringing people together. Of course, they True hams know that tyro radio is really about exchanging signal reports, gas prices, rainfall amounts, and minute details of their ongoing physical deterioration. That and spending the better fraction of every weekend screaming "CQ CONTEST" into their trusty feeble Astatics until we're blue from want of oxygen.

    Every day, at 3 pm, I associate my honorable tyro friends in the Greater Springfield Traffic Net And Grim Reaper Roll Call, and for two hours a day they greet one another with a hearty round of "no traffic"s and "any further check-ins?" This is the True public service for which tyro radio was created, and they are arrogant to live on the ready in the very actual likelihood that an emergency takes out every landline, cellphone, coaxial cable, fiber optic pipe, public-service repeater, and VHF handheld in the United States.

    We carry on this thankless tradition while you immature hoodlums are roaming around the neighborhoods in your trucks attacking the computing machines of people you don't even know with killer viruses and electric mail messages offering discounts on potions which unnaturally stimulate the manly sexual organs.

    You should live ashamed of yourselves. That is not the spirit of tyro radio.

    Very soon my lifelong predictions will reach True and they will outright lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who suffer no respect for the countless hours they suffer spent sitting in their cellars motto nothing to one another.

    Bah!

    Yours in disgust,

    Elbert T. Grumpinfutz(call withheld by request)

      RE: their bands, their interference   by K4IQT on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "No 'breaking in' involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to spend the connection."

    CJ, the problem is that most of those folks who are running open networks accomplish not know it - they just bought a WAP at Best Buy and a card for their laptop, and are unaware that any wardriver can access their open network.

    There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may suffer personal data on shared resources on their network, and speculate they are protected just because they suffer routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.

    BTW, it's challenging how this thread has meandered away from WiFi and now borders on the future of tyro radio!

    <chuckle>

    --K4IQTTerry

      RE: their bands, their interference   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may suffer personal data on shared resources on their network, and speculate they are protected just because they suffer routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.">>

    Exactly.

    Most wardrivers roam around town trying to find WiFi hotspots which is fine and good. Most of them also heed the best signal spots. Why if not to reach back to try and ILLEGALLY access the network?

    This has nothing to accomplish with an ISP, individual, or company, (Starbucks comes to mind) from offering their network freely. We're talking about people sneaking around with frequency counters, GPS recievers, and laptops trying to access closed networks. unostentatious and simple.

    <<"Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad graze runs out of rosey paint for your tired feeble cliches'.">>

    OK sonny I'll accomplish that.Oh wait,..........I accomplish this stuff for a living, keeping punks out of networks I mean.

      RE: their bands, their interference   by W4CNG on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You don't necessity frequency counters and GPS receivers to find the networks, just a simple handheld device called a PDA with WiFi. BTW, anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better speculate more than twice, occasions who cares if you can live heard 20 miles away from that Mountain-top location when you cannot hear the 200MW laptop 15 miles away trying to talk back. Sounds like an Aligator 2 meter repeater to me, does not quite add up. Wireless in more than one form is here to stay, there are lots of varieties to ride on.Steve W4CNG Surfing the free and abundant Spots.   Hug a WiFi-er today   by W2EV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Steve wrote, "...anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better speculate more than twice..."

    Right on, Steve. This is e-x-a-c-t-l-y why it is advantageous for tyro Radio to find a passage to embrace those who are exploiting the Part15 users of the WiFi frequencies. They suffer learned many lessons over the years...lessons that can live built upon.

    1. --- Cellular radio and APRS are animated examples of where elevated power and long distances for the purpose of uplinking users to a network are rotten ideas. On the other hand, it's a much passage to link "cells" of activity together...as a backbone.

    2. --- FM Repeater sub-bands and their regional coordination are animated examples of how to dissipate spectrum and setup unnecessary conflict. On the other hand, a national contrivance for digital spectrum usage could serve us well.

    Why accomplish WiFi DX enthusiasts accomplish what they do? For the identical understanding they accomplish what they do. It's fun and exciting. They are limiting their ranks by taking a "holier than thou" viewpoint of their activity.

    Embrace the WiFi experimenters. They are lop from the identical cloth. Elmer them into the hobby and inject more energy into your club than a bottle full of Geritol ever could.

    Ev Tupis, W2EV

      Wrong poop   by KA4KOE on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would live the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away."

    Dr. Lee didn't invent radio telephony. You should've vandalized Fessenden's lab. ITS outright YOUR FAULT...WRONG HOUSE, YOU DUMMY!!!

    FEELEEEP

      RE: Hug a WiFi-er today   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2ev. Ev, contact me directly, and I will wait on you with any explanation I can muster with such issues.

    73! de JohnPSIs there a understanding why your title and callsign are so similar?

      RE: Wrong poop   by AE6IP on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > lop me some slack. I was only 9.

    Your previous post was one of the funniest things I've ever read on a ham forum. Thanks,

    Marty

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! yEah, so what they meanderd,we went out of scope. they took other convivial issue's to the table. BFD!It is indeed fun.   Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KA2YBP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Looking down the nose of your code-requirements and degrading hobby, you drill NO to WIFI'ers... You said no to CBers, you said no to codeless licenses... observe a pattern. Why not embrace WIFI, it is the newest blood, perhaps the final wave of people to fetch interest in a 'hobby', simply said... It's wireless, isn't that what the ham hobby is about. OOOps, I forgot, it's a service. I listen to the Indiana traffic net meet daily on 75m, roll muster list of their telephone directory of anyone who has checked into their net... Bla Bla.. No traffic today, astronomical suprise. Strap the code requirements immediate to you and wait for the next contact. Ever examine at the medium age of a ham, this number will never acquire infinity, but it's moving up. fetch with the program.   Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Brien, sometimes you suffer to do the shoe on the otherhand.(hi-hi)

    Sometimes a repeater club may suffer had peril with a habitual jammer. They paid for the repeater, duplexer, antenna(s) snd difficult line.

    If they also suffer to pay rent for the space the expenses can fetch very high. Lets drill it is a 60W repeater. If they are in an area with lots of Imod,they suffer to spend a PL. It could quiet live public.If it

    If it is DPL, then chances are it is a private machine. You can set up your own repeater some day,and live just as exclusive.

    In NYC outright repeaters suffer to spend PL. So much IMOD that carrier squelch will not do. Most of the modern radio's allow you you scan for the PL or DPL.

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by VE3WGO on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! At least somebody is making used of the 13 cm (2300-2450 MHz) band. Hams are definitely not overloading it, that's for sure!

    Comparing the 802.11b channelization, http://home.comcast.net/~sofa.spud/802.11_freqs/802.11freqs.html

    with 13cm ham bandplans such as the one they suffer here in Canada, http://www.rac.ca/service/13cmrev1.htm

    it can live seen that WiFi Channels 1 through 6 topple into their band.

    We necessity to examine into the WiFi transceiver cards to observe if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use. Maybe it's not practicable (single chip does almost everything), but it's at least worth trying...

    Rather than fearing, rejecting, or bashing WiFiers as some suffer done on this thread, they really necessity to interrogate these WiFi experimenters how it's done.

    They suffer innovated. suffer you seen the Pringle's chip can waveguide antenna? well-behaved gain figures. WiFiers came up with that.

    Lots of well-behaved stuff is on the net about WiFi technology. Here is a site that includes a huge treasure trove of UHF/microwave ham radio and WiFi experimeters info and construction articles, at the Green Bay PPR site at http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/

    Take it outright in folks. If hams aren't using the bands, there are lots of other groups who are...

    WiFi also operates in the 5.8 GHz band. WiMAX (see this month's CQ Magazine for a much introductory article by KA3JIJ) will also operate in 2.5, 3.5, 5.8, and higher bands, inside or adjacent to ham bands. it is the next coming wireless trend, and is just making it throuhg the international standards bodies now, and some companies are getting the technology worked out. Hopefully this will lead to cheaper, more readily available components and building blocks for hams to build on, just like military surplus did in the 50s and 60s.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AB2M on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There were a few posts about a zillion or two back that were talking about how some folks suffer "secured" their 802.11 networks from hackers/crackers/miscreants (choose your term).

    Let's fetch a few things straight:

    MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for someone who is clueless about WiFi. Almost any WLAN card can live ASSIGNED a MAC address. In Linux, this is a trivial one-line command. Someone who wants to subvert your security will sniff your WLAN (easy!), fetch the required MAC addresses, and spend one. Unless you monitor that WLAN 24x7, you will NEVER know.

    To the OM who installed his WiFi outside his firewall and is gay that the only thing that can live accessed is the Internet, let me pose a few scenarios for you. Let me know which one you feel more cozy with:

    A. Your WLAN is used to route a zillion pieces of spam, causing your ISP to cancel your account.

    B. Your WLAN is used to perpetrate an beset against a corporate or government network. It will live traced back to you. Or, maybe it's just used to launch the latest virus or worm.

    C. Your WLAN is used to traffic in child pornography, which is then noticed as fraction of an FBI sting operation. FBI agents reach to your door with a warrant and haul you and your PC off.

    If you speculate that spammers, hackers/crackers, and pedophiles aren't doing this today, then I suggest a lengthy session of Googling.

    73, Joe AB2M

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "We necessity to examine into the WiFi transceiver cards to observe if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use."

    Why accomplish they necessity to reinvent some parallel to OFDM?

    If the ASIC chipset only supports OFDM, where is the choice going to reach from?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Marty asked, "but will he give us outright rides in his Cessna?"Only if they smoke the peace Piper with him.It would help, also, to senc him a Belanca Check.After all, it's only Mooney!

    Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me accomplish that! ;-)

    73, Cal K4JSR

      RE: listen, you immature punks   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Grumpinfutz for FCC Chairman!

    Until I read this thread, I thought that Wife Eye iswhat KG4RJM used on me at hamfests to preserve me from buying too many goodies!

    You youngsters speculate things are tough now? Back in the day when W4CNG and I quiet had hair on top of ourheads, they were soooooo tough that they burned their own warts off with their spark gap transmitters!

    Wife eye, indeed! Next thing they will want is for usto fetch licenses and maybe even know something!

    Hey, Gruminfutz, you relate 'em that they are outright a bunch of girlie-hams! drill these damp behind the ears types some respect! This is serious!Trust me!

    Go away and leave me alone, now! I necessity to pout alone!

    A. Nony MouseRat Cheer, Ga.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for> someone who is clueless about WiFi.

    Yes, no, and maybe. MAC filtering, by itself, only reduces your exposure slighlty. However, when used with other techniques, it helps. They only allow two MAC addresses here, and both machines are usually on. So if someone attempts a spoof, it become apparrent very quickly.

    WiFi security sucks. Key size doesn't matter much, as there are bugs in key exchange protocols that can live exploited for replay attacks. There are proprietary tricks that help, but they restrict you to one vendor's hardware.

    As I've said, my technique involves reducing the scope of my WAP, so that it can't live heard outside of house and yard. If you wanna spend my wifi, you gotta reach onto my property.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me accomplish that! ;-)

    bad devil. no cookie. ;)

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by W6BKY on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NN2U,

    "Very soon my lifelong predictions will reach True and they will outright lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who suffer no respect for the countless hours they suffer spent sitting in their cellars motto nothing to one another."

    Well said!!

    - but -

    In your cogent description of "Real Hams", you forgot to include those of us who know "real" Ham radio so well that they no longer bother to fetch on the air at all.

    Heck, most ;aof us "real" Hams don't even suffer a rig or antenna (the retirement home doesn't allow antennas, so why suffer a rig?).

    We simply suffer their Ham Club meetings at their favorite restaurant and delight in endless re-telling of the identical "good feeble days" stories for the umpteenth time.

    Sometimes, the stories even suffer something to accomplish with radio, or communications, or some such - but not often.

    Now, that's actual Ham radio!

    I could drill lots more, but it's time for my pills.

    73, Dick, W6BKY

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! From front page of http://www.dailywireless.org

    Wi-LAN today introduced its pre-WiMax LIBRA MX, for Wireless OFDM in the 3.5 GHz range...

    http://www.wi-lan.com/products/libramx.htm

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, for what its worth. I originally got into ham back when the internet was not as huge and omnipresent as it is now.I had completely gotten out of HAM until I got into 802.11 through travail ( i am a net engineer ) . Now Im outright stoked to read about the nitty gritty modulation techniques etc. Another friend of mine at travail who is into digital communications, packet etc has been helping spur me along and now I just picked up my first HT since I gave away or sold off my gear about two years ago. Knowing basic radio theory really helps out and I cant wait as 802.11 progresses and I fetch to read about outright of the killer inovations that it provides. Maybe one day I can find time to build some home rolled microwave digital gear.IMHO, if you want ham to grow, acquire it relavent to the current generation. 802.11 and microwave communication has never been more relavent and embracing it and teaching people about ethics , antenna and rf theory would accomplish more for the ham community then anything EVER has.

    73's

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A quick tip, spend WPA with radius, suffer it renew the key ever 5 minutes. That pretty much eliminates every applicable security exploit out there. If you are actual parinoid you could spend a VPN client/server and some clevor routing to nail it down even tighter. Dont allow excess coverage and acquire well-behaved spend of directional antennas if you want to fetch in a certain fraction of the yard.Just my .02, now back to the topic.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC0GQT on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There are a few diffrent types of hackers...There are those who try to fetch into systems for the fun of it. A well-behaved network admin might live called a hacker.

    There are those who accomplish it to steal information.

    Some are called White Hat Hackers who are on the well-behaved side and report security stuff to the admins, then there are the Black Hat Hackers who are the rotten people.WiFi can live used for well-behaved things and bad. It just depends on who uses it I guest.

    Check out 2600, 2600.com

    And for those who drill WiFi is NOT tyro radio, you better check your facts. Channels 1-6 topple birthright on the 2.4g band.

    Hope this helps!

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

    Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you accomplish not suffer explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

    They gather sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS accomplish not necessity the money either.They just like anarcy.

    A few are as rotten as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to suffer cosidered messing with WLANS.

    I am not motto outright at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards suffer a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

    Some are open to attract customers, like STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They suffer not a clue of who could mess them up, or steal sensitive info.

    It is like the feeble analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

    Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you accomplish not suffer explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

    They gather sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS accomplish not necessity the money either.They just like anarcy.

    A few are as rotten as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to suffer cosidered messing with WLANS.

    I am not motto outright at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards suffer a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

    Some are open to attract customers, like STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They suffer not a clue of who could mess them up, or steal sensitive info.

    It is like the feeble analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

      As with radio, it is outright about INTENT !   by K4RAF on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As with any radios, you can play "what IF..." outright day. I could spend a ham radio to communicate or to jam. Does that acquire outright hams jammers?

    The following statement, from NetStumbler's author, states his intent clearly to underscore more common ground than most acknowledge. This ground lies unclaimed by most of the folks posting in this thread:

    {Shipley}: "Most recently I invented Wardriving, while I am not the first person to fade out and search for open wireless LANS (a few before me ventured around with in a with a laptop, pencil & paper manualy scribbling notes). I was first to automate it outright with dedicated software and a GPS. When I started this project the usage of WEP was around 15%, after going public with my findings, just one year later, WEP usage is now about 33%. This is well-behaved to know, that people are getting the message."

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KG4ZIE on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am a computer guy and I spend 802.11 technologies daily at home and at work. At home I even spend it for tyro radio how you may ask. Well about 1000ft away from my house is my friends repeater. It just so happens that this repeater is on IRLP. I know many hams accomplish not like IRLP and drill that it is not radio however I disagree as I quiet spend my radio to access it. To fetch this node on the air they spend a 802.11 link. Not only accomplish they Run the IRLP through this link but they spend it for VoIP (Voice over IP which is basically a phone line running across the internet). So basically from a 802.11 link they provide people with a passage to talk outright over the world and the spend of a phone. In their situation they can not get/afford a internet connection and/or a phone line up on the site so this setup works much for us.   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NY7Q told us:"SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually accomplish what they want and crash the rules...so I don't want them around."

    Exactly what fraction 15 rules suffer they broke? Content?

    "Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

    You best fetch out from behind those vacuum tubes and select a examine at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they examine alot like computers to me!

      Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, once again I should suffer read the entire thread before my earlier content, because I am now embarassed to live fraction of this. More on this later.

    The one thing I found interesting, in this "WiFI'ers vs. Ham's" debate is most of the solemn WiFi'ers are hams operating under fraction 15. I did a poll of the BAWUG (Bay area Wireless Users Group) and fully 40% on the list. And of the actual mover's and shakers, 3 out of 4 held tyro radio licenses.

    What this tells me is one simple thing. Their hobby has cancer is is being eaten from within. Those with closed minds who wish to re-live their childhoods of vacumm tubes and duck and cover drills.

    Instead of trying to compare "WiFi'ers" to CB'ers (and how many of you came here from those ranks??) they should live embacing them. The status of tyro radio in the United States is a status of embarassment. Quick, how many of those modern and fancy HF digital modes where invented in the U.S.? Europes regulations, and acceptance of alternate modes, is much greater then the U.S. and it shows.

    Wake up dipshits.

    73

    Jeff wb8wka

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The status of tyro radio in the United States is a status of embarassment."

    This is indeed true, along with denial & it is cultural in nature. I suffer found considerable ham movements in the UK & Australia on the web. Much of the tinkering going on is outside the US (UK, Spain, Poland, Australia, etc...).

    In the end, it really seems silly to suffer to fetch a license that cuts your faculty to fully utilize the utility of wifi.

    We suffer a abysmal 'control' problem, driven by ruling over others, in an attempt to anywise look 'superior'...

    Part 15: No content or WEP-like restrictions, just ERPPart 97: Higher power allowed but content restricted & no even of "security" allowed

    Who are the CB'ers???

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You can apply the security on top of any modulation schema. I suffer been very interested in playing with different modulation schemes since getting into 802.11 and then back into ham. I necessity to fetch in handle with that guy with the 10gig horn kits and observe about getting one of those.We necessity at least a portion of the ham community to lead the away again, in modulations, antennas, and pretty much anything microwave or related. Lets declare packet deceased and accomplish something really challenging like a network of HAM 802.11 esque nodes that blanket all cities. Then they would suffer the infrastructure to accomplish anything. like anything else in the world for HAM to grow they suffer to tarry relevant.   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <"Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

    You best fetch out from behind those vacuum tubes and select a examine at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they examine alot like computers to me! >

    Maybe you should read the description better, then. They are certainly NOT computers. They spend computers, but they are not computers. Computers are a tool, nothing more. But using them maliciously, like the so-called wi-fiers, is against outright that is well-behaved about ham radio. They should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways.

    Ham radio has far, far more to present than computers ever will. After the hams before us brought computers into the home, they should spend them as the tools they are.

    Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" reach back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "But using them maliciously, like the so-called wi-fiers, is against outright that is well-behaved about ham radio."

    Please cite examples when you acquire accusations about this. accomplish you even know of any of the community WiFi groups? relate me exactly what is "malicious" about these WiFi'ers:

    http://andrewhitchcock.org/gallery/2003wirelessfieldday

    Yeap, that is right, those nasty untutored WiFi'ers had their own bailiwick day.

    "We should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways."

    Lets see, hang around with some untutored feeble men stuck in the 50's, or accomplish smart and nonchalant things with wireless and computers.....

    "Ham radio has far, far more to present than computers ever will."

    Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are fraction of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to present when it embraces modern technology....

    "Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" reach back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?"

    Possibly because many of the things these guys are trying to do... message traffic, community networks, ect ect where the roots of ham radio back in its early days. Don't know.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by KB5WBH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Would 900mhz live better? Don't know if the birthright outfit is out there for it, just wondering since 2.4ghz is so celebrated with non hams.73Mike   Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by N1YRK on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As far as the "hacking" and "guerrilla networking" goes, a few people here are using the wrong defenitions of "hack" to jump to a negative judgement on the value of these radio hobbyists. THe author of this article means "hack" in the pre- "WarGames"-movie meaning, which was someone who liked to mess around with technology in non-traditonal ways. I speculate that THIS meaning has much in common with ham radio. The OTHER meaning of "hack" has more to accomplish with pirate radio, cellphone services thieves, and people who jam others communications - i.e. the "bad guys".

    SO, with that cleared up - A pair of years ago I started a group called BAWIA - Boston area Wireless Internet Alliance - http://www.bawia.org - to promote and coordinate activity in the the area that the author speaks of. However, I suffer found a very low even of technical competance in the RF discontinuance of things in the group as a whole. They necessity hams! Ham radio also also needs the enthusiastic, immature modern blood that this movement offers. So I encourage this cooperation!

    What I find alarming is among these hobbyists there is practically NO esteem given to lightening safety - arrestors are hardly ever seen! Another thing I suffer been trying to educate people on is the RF loss in lengths of cheap cable at microwave frequencies. Many of the antennas sold at computer stores for home networking suffer long lengths of generic cable that is passage too thin to give me any aplomb that the miniature gain given by such a tiny antenna isn't wasted on the 15 feet of flimsy cable attaching it to the WiFi card!

    A fun project for "hacking" on is the MIT roofnet software, which forms a self-organizing "grid" a.k.a. "mesh" network from feeble PCs with a wireless card. observe http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/roofnet and http://www.bawia.org/meshax

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets see, hang around with some untutored feeble men stuck in the 50's, or accomplish smart and nonchalant things with wireless and computers.....

    WHAT untutored feeble men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) outright solid status and very advanced. Three networked computers are there doing outright kinds of "cool things". BUT, outright legal and above board, not hacking.

    "Ham radio has far, far more to present than computers ever will."

    <Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are fraction of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to present when it embraces modern technology.... >

    AGAIN, it don't fetch any more modern than DSP and solid status with imbedded microprocessors. Don't condemn from a standpoint of ignorance, you'll fetch shot down every time.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WA2DYA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio.

    --- CHAS

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio"

    You're right...

    It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

    It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!!

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I also forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18...

    Definately not ham radio related...

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <I also forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18... >

    I find that VERY difficult to believe. It's just computers... a tool, not an avocation.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

    It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!! >

    Uhh, I speculate you suffer it backwards. You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I speculate this thread relies on too many loaded words and phrases. They should lop through the underbrush and fetch to the underlying question.

    Rather than terms like "WiFi" and "Wardriving", let's talk about the underlying technology.

    "WiFi" is just a marketing title for a particular approach to very short scope radio networks. These nets, collectively, topple under the heading of 802.11 -- an IEEE subcommittee, and the standards produced by that subcoommittee.

    WiFi, and its competitor, bluetooth, were originally aimed at very short scope networks. Originally, bluetooth was intended for "body area" networks, while WiFi was intended for building area networks.

    But it is the nature of computing networks that "local area" grows to encompass as great an area as technically feasible.

    For WiFi, this means attempts to grow beyond the few hundred feet implicit in the original power/antenna designs, and observe how far such networks can live extended.

    There are informal approaches, such as the infamous pringles can antenna, and there are more formal approaches, such as the consortium that is attempting to extend RF nets to the geographic scope that broadband networks currently have.

    Is this germane to tyro radio? It could be, but it doesn't suffer to be. If, as I contend, the tyro radio hobby is now about enjoying anachronistic means of radio communication, notably HF and VHF/FM; then there is no intersection.

    If, on the other hand, if tyro radio is about being on the RF communications leading edge, as those who like to cite section 1a of the regs like to claim, then attempts to extend WiFi are very much fruitful grounds for both tyro radio hobbiests and for recruiting tyro radio hobbiests from.

    After all, this is about as QRP as radio communications get, and it is, very much about things like efficient antenna design, and frequency sharing.

    On the other hand, it is also about what is, in reality, the great gap between the status of the know-how in radio communications, and the status of the know-how as practiced in tyro radio.

    Which path this hobby takes at this fork in the road is entirely up to the hobbiests. I predict it will fade in the direction of nostalgia and anachronism -- and that's perefectly fine with me; since that's why I got involved in the hobby.

    The only danger is to fade down the one path while believing that the hobby is going down the other.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A computer is indeed a tool. So is a radio. Both are extensions of basic human capabilities -- computing, managing information, and communicating.

    The combination of wireless connectivity and distributed computing is producing an explosion of modern opportunities. Those who value glow-in-the-dark equipment, CW, and HF propagation are free to delight in their nostalgia. Those interested in pushing forward are also free to accomplish so, and ought not live held back by the necessity to demonstrate mastery of commodity technology.

    Every transceiver built in 1950s incorporated parts made of steel and copper. Did tyro radio exams of that era require knowledge of forging steel, or smelting copper? Of course not; such parts were available off-the-shelf, and could not live significantly improved by tyro practitioners. The extrapolation to today's technology is obvious.

    I wrote my first computer program in 1968, designed my first commercially-released computer in 1972, and started writing tyro radio software within months of getting my ticket in 1990. I value DXing on the HF bands, and will continue to accomplish so until I've confirmed every DXCC entity on every troupe between 160m and 6m, and on phone, CW, and RTTY. I redesigned my SB-220 for 8-band operation before replacing it with an AL-1200, which only fails to glow in the unlit because its tube is ceramic and its meter lights are long blown. Creating and maintaining the freeware DXLab Suite has taught me a ton about user-driven software development, and helped stimulate my thinking about wireless mesh networks that spend WiFi and ultra-wideband to create a communications fabric they could never achieve at HF.

    My point is that their hobby encompasses a broad scope of interests, and they are not mutually exclusive. You're not personally interested? No problem. Just don't discourage those who are.

    73,

    Dave, AA6YQ

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "WHAT untutored feeble men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) outright solid status and very advanced."

    Your right, the medium ham in the 1950's at least built fraction of his station... just like the medium WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought.

    "BUT, outright legal and above board, not hacking."

    You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to live called a hacker. Means I suffer a brain and I like to experiment and learn how things work.

    Or accomplish you live of value black hat hacking? OK, for the second time, gladden document the accusations you are making.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KD7ZOX on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, I'm fraction of the "Computer Crowd," being 15, and I suffer learned a lot abot networking, ecryption, 802.11b, 802.11g, and even the days of Token Ring, which uses coax cable to network(although I scout it as it is incredible unstable and slow). I'd like to speculate I suffer well-behaved ethics. I accomplish not hack into others computers, although I am perfectly capable of it. My friend Al, KE7AUK, is also someone who is well-behaved with networks, and i got him interested in Ham Radio. It seems there might live a pattern here... I suffer gotten my friend Jeremy interested, he works at IBM, and he's head of the network staff there. outright of these people are well-behaved people, and suffer well-behaved ethics. I speculate many people nowadays don't suffer enough faith in the newer generations.

    KD7ZOX

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You're "right, the medium ham in the 1950's at least built fraction of his station... just like the medium WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought." >

    And you built your wifi boxes? What kindhearted of setup to you suffer for making the ICs?

    I suffer built many computers myself, absolutely no more difficult than integrating the various components of the station. BTW, the computer you observe in the station photo (one of 3) is a homebrew, so I know what I am comparing. also suffer built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to live called a hacker. Means I suffer a brain and I like to experiment and learn how things work>

    I know EXACTLY what hacking means. I suffer been in involved in home computers for over 25 years, built my own back in early 80s. Ever read the book "Hackers"?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "And you built your wifi boxes?"

    Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code). also quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station).

    "What kindhearted of setup to you suffer for making the ICs?"

    Yeap, figures. You'd live the appliance operator in the 1950's who would also asked the ham hacker of that era if he had refined the copper and mined the iron for the homebrew rigs of that era.

    "Also suffer built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)"

    Good for you. Then why outright the basely accusations against hams that want to experiment with WiFi? You realize twice I suffer asked you to document your claims of law breaking, and twice you suffer ignored them.

    Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to live relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can fade a long passage into making this happen.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And you built your wifi boxes?"

    Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code).

    Uhh, that's writing software (which I suffer done - and marketed). Not quite the same.

    "Also quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station)."

    Who said I bought the Windom? I've built quite a few wire and other antennas, including helical, even. But a board like this should not fetch personal, so let's quit that.==================================================

    "Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to live relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can fade a long passage into making this happen."

    Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules. If "being germane to today's society" means they must accept society's current attitude that laws are irrational if I don't want to result them (as in "Who are you to relate me to leisurely down in the school zone?") then they suffer only anarchy ahead ("the hacker ethic"). They suffer had some much people reach in from the other lawless group, but suffer also had some actual problems from some of them who accomplish not want to result the law. They don't necessity more.

    As I said before, I welcome outright who are really interested in the hobby/service. But only if they contrivance to operate within established laws and norms. I really don't understand why that is such a barrier.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another point: This is a service as well as a hobby. Often, in an emergency situation, they are working shoulder-to-shoulder with law enforcement personnel. (Done it many times.) How effectual will they live if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?   RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! k4jf claimed for the fourth time:

    "Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules."

    and later said:

    "How effectual will they live if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?"

    I've now asked you I believe 3 times to justify this statement. You drill you don't want to fetch personal, yet you fade on and on with the accusations. I'm not motto your wrong (or right), I'm just asking you to demonstrate your not full of shit and just a techno-rascist who doesn't want anyone in the hobby that doesn't speculate the passage they do.

    But it certain seems that way. I guess your lucky you didn't Run into someone like yourself back when you were playing CB back in the late 70's... not that you where doing anything illegal, but they accomplish know how outright those WiFi'ers are lawbreakers, just like those CB'ers where, don't we?

    BTW, SOFTWARE is where radio is... not to drill I haven't designed the hardware (have a fraction 15 900mhz XE1202 radio in for testing for certification now).

    BTW2, you didn't drill "windom", you said "carolina windom" which is a storebought custom design windom, which RadioWorks holds an exclusive license to produce/advertize under that name.

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us all:

    "You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it."

    Obviously your spell checker is broken then.

    Take a few of these web pages to your next ham meeting, and relate me how many of the hams understand what these "wifi hackers" are doing:

    http://trevormarshall.com/waveguides.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/homebrewant.htmlhttp://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/http://www.wireless.org.au/~jhecker/helix/http://www.netscum.com/~clapp/wireless.htmlhttp://www.olotwireless.net/catala/Building.htm

    and on and on...

    They certain emerge to know how to spell RF.

    Jim, you really necessity to fetch out of the house more. It is a valorous modern world out there, and at least in advancing the status of the know-how on 2.4ghz, ham's are being given a Run for the money by the WiFi hacker's.

    I for one speculate they should embrace them, rather then shun them like you look to advocate. Of course they necessity to result the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you suffer observed.

    All barbs aside, ham radio embraced "cb radio", like it or not, back in the late 70's. There is no comparsion between the "WiFi hacker" and the CB'ers of the 70's. WiFi hackers are far more technically knowledgable then the CB'ers of the 70's and quite frankly, most hams today (when it comes to microwaves).

    They would live a much asset to the hobby.

    And honestly, you shouldn't feel threatned by them. I doubt if many would live interested in voice or digital on 80 meters, they suffer a specific goal in mind, and that goal is not ragchewing.

    But they are different then you. You'll necessity to deal with that.

    73

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Of course they necessity to result the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you suffer observed. >

    Thanks for the websites - they prove my point! The first one I looked up had disclaimers that drill this antenna I am describing is in violation of FCC rules, don't accomplish it, etc., etc., etc. Kinda reminds me of the illegal CB linears sold exclusively to CBers with a astronomical label "Illegal for CB use".

    Again - Amateurs are well-known (if imperfect) for self-policing, and they welcome outright with an interest, IF and only IF, they abstain from illegal use. And since they agree on that point, where is the problem?

      RE: Where Does WiFi topple into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! The problem is you said they where lawbreakers, yet you suffer repeatedly failed to provide one unique example...

    Do you even suffer a clue? accomplish you know what 15.23 even says? How about the recent liberalization of the fraction 15 rules to allow amalgamate and match?

    Jesus christ, you are exactly what is wrong with the hobby. Self rightous assholes who scare away anyone with half a brain.

    I give up. delight in yourself.

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